Kitty wrote a brilliant post about submitting vs. being made to submit, or following vs. being made to follow. I have watched myself struggle to learn how to follow or submit without the being-made-to part because that has always been what my husband wanted. He has never deviated from this. But there is absolutely and undeniably a thrill, a high, a charge, and a huge turn on in the being-made-to.
Part of the evolution has been in my coming to believe - down deep in my core - that he does want my submission. This belief makes me want to offer exactly that: he wants my submission so i offer it, he doesn't want to fight me for it so i don't want to make him. I know - and I've known all along - that whenever i pushed back and tried to get him to force anything out of me, it was because i needed him to prove he really wanted it, that i wasn't giving something so overwhelming for no reason. Not so mature, but i guess it's the process i had to go through.
And if that makes it sound like i now manage some blissful, idyllic, strife and doubt-free submissive existence - well - my husband could refute that notion if he could stop laughing long enough to list the many ways i miss the mark. I try. He knows i try. Sometimes the best i can do is to be open to getting past the attitude or bad mood or whatever-it-is when he does the magic he does to get me there. I often can't get myself there, but if i fight him, i'll never make the leap, so cooperating with the process is sometimes the best i got.
Which brings me back to the tools/things-he-exploits/magic-he-does to get me to the point of submissive. It does, in describing it, sound like forcing my submission, exactly what i said he won't do. It is different. There have been the rare occasions that i just couldn't "get there" and he stopped. It's a subtle but really obvious thing - the difference between struggling but trying to keep up and struggling but sitting down and refusing to move at all. He won't force, he expects me to try.
But there are an awful lot of actions, words, sensations, situations, things he can do to me or demand of me that will push me through all the other feelings i might be fighting with. For us - this is what i sometimes need; maybe he sometimes needs to have the opportunity to do this - i don't know. Sometimes i do need to be conquered, but i have to let him do it.
greengirl, I appreciate the extension of the thought process - this is a good post and I feel the truth in much of it. Knowing the truth and living the truth though - two different things some days. Sigh.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the very kind mention.
Kitty,
DeleteYou described the inner conflict so perfectly. The desire to be conquered is there, it just feels good. It feels less satisfying, less like submission and more like just an exercise in self discipline if i have to generate it. Yet this is exactly what he wants. And that's the magic last piece of the circle. And absolutley - it has taken me this long to know it - i don't really think i will ever live it so easily.
This post is very timely for me. Today I am distracted and stressed about things that have nothing to do with out dynamic and I don't feel well. I get an email with explicit instructions to keep me feeling submissive and I feel even more overwhelmed, like I don't have time for this crap, today and I know it's wrong but there is. Maybe I just need to offer it up and let the other stuff go.
ReplyDeletedb,
DeleteThat is when it is the hardest, when there is so much outside demand on time and mental effort and emotional resources. It is so hard to find the spot that is really helpful vs. what is just onerous, and what is just enough of a push to help center and realign vs. what is past our resources. I know you two will keep shifting around to find that right spot. I hope the weekend is better for you.
I think it is a challenge to charge through all the excess emotional peaks, to cancel out the noise.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the submitting versus being made to submit--I have stayed away from commenting on posts that deal with those topics because frankly...I really don't agree or I am loosing something in the wording or the language being used.
Being made to submit--has always painted a picture of some hopeless, almost mindless soul who is dicating, to me that isn't what submission is about. How you have phrased it here, however, I get :o)
I am not sure if I would call it immature to want the reassurance that proving that he actually wants this from you. That actually kind of sounds reasonable.
I can understand the need to be taken past those bad moods and coperating with the process-I think sometimes that's all we can do. I think there is also a difference between knowing you need to be 'conquered' and him knowing that as well and getting the dominating behaviour/or response you seek thorugh manuiplation or some other tacit.
This is a great post :o)
Bleuame,
DeleteI can see the bleak image of the being-made-to submit idea, something clearly non-consensual or in which the person is too afraid or coerced to consent. But there is also an image of a (girl) who very much wants to submit but the style or flavor of it is more overt, a more palpable back and forth and a physical or mental conquering. There is something appealing and exciting and arousing about that image for me, and i believe that is part of the role of more intense play and pain, etc for us.
You're right, it's not the needing reassurance that is or was immature, but i did take a very, very long time to trust and believe him when he told me, over and over, that he really wants this. I had no reason not to trust his words.
Your thought-provoking post has made me pause. I can't put two thoughts together today, or I would delve a little deeper in my comment.
ReplyDeletethis girl,
DeleteThank you - i think there are days we are meant to not think so deeply - it's good for us sometimes.
I can relate to this post greengirl. Really :)
ReplyDeleteVery nicely put :)
Dee x
Dee,
DeleteThank you so much.
There have been so many times when I've had those moments where I've wanted to be "made" to be submissive. When my emotional state gets so high and it's like "Fix this, just do something!" attitude occurs. I've never thought of it as needing to be conquered, but that really is the perfect word.
ReplyDeleteSerenity,
DeleteThank you - i didn't coin it though. There is a book called "Conquer Me." I haven't read much in this whole realm, but this book i did and a great deal of it was no-nonsense and very useful.
I don't see how you can submit without some form of compulsion. Otherwise, it's hardly submitting, is it?
ReplyDeleteMalcolm,
DeleteI thought at first that this would be a difficult comment to answer. But perhaps not...
For me, quite often the compulsion is that i want to make him happy or to be pleasing to him. Perhaps one could argue that if something doesn't feel difficult, doing it isn't submitting, it's just doing something you like doing. But i still consider that "being submissive." I don't think i could survive, much less thrive, if all of my existence were difficult or unpleasant. If i had to submit, in that sense of the word, all the time, neither of us would have any joy. But "being submissive" is an attitude and a frame of mind that does bring us both joy.
Sometimes it is a struggle for me to do or be what he wants, sometimes it is not what i feel or would choose. In those cases i comply because he has asked me to. Sometimes it comes down to the fact that i agreed to this and i am compelled in the end by my vow/agreement/place in this.
Thank you for your comment.
I liked Kitty's post very much as well, greengirl. Speaking from the Dom perspective, one of the issues I think we face is that the style of "leadership" taught in the Western world generally leans towards a participative, consensus-building style. There's a belief (and it's one I share) that this style of leadership succeeds better than the old-fashioned "I'm the boss so do what I say" kind of approach.
ReplyDeleteHowever, thinking over what both you and Kitty have said and matching it up with what I've observed from Joy, it's clear to me that the old-fashioned approach to leadership is generally desired by the submissive half of the relationship. And I confess that when I think about it, that's actually what I often desire from D/s as well. But I have two challenges with this. The first is that it's hard to unlearn lessons, and the second is that I continue to believe that participative leadership is better, even in (and perhaps especially in) one's personal relationship.
The approach I'm taking to try to address this conflict is to separate out bedroom desires from relationship needs and use different styles for each. In the bedroom, I'm attempting to migrate (with some success, I think) to a more directive style. "Do as you are told" is my attempt at codifying this in a single phrase. Outside the bedroom, however, I continue to use a participative approach. So far this seems to be working...I think. There is some evidence, however, that at times Joy wants more direction even outside the bedroom, so we'll see...
Anyway, those are my long-winded thoughts. Thanks for a thoughtful post!
Jake,
DeleteI think you see it very clearly. To a certain extent it feels odd to be analyzing how we are being led, like somehow it should be a secret, mysterious thing. But obviously it isn't; it just means for me finding the line between feedback and critique. Absolutely, there is a strong desire to be told or even made to do what he wants. It's a thing that still at times seems wrong or shameful somehow, but it's real. I think our relationship is maybe a lot like yours - it certainly started in the bedroom and seeped out to everything else over time. And the bedroom is where the ordering and coercing and forcing come in. It's not role play, but we can be different there than throughout the rest of our days. It does seem to be the perfect venue for establishing and reinforcing our positions and needs for feeling our roles. It is a big part of why the opportunities for play in that way are so crucial. And yes - to deal with life, a more cooperative approach is necessary - he can't function for two people - i have to function well on my own. And having the roles reinforced helps me do that while keeping the perspective he wants.
Thought provoking, greengirl. I've read this twice now, and need to keep thinking. Tell you what though-This is absolutely true for me: "For me to get truly to submissive, all that other noise has to be obliterated, not just walled off or pushed aside. And he understands this."
ReplyDeleteWe started all this in the bedroom, and as you said above-it seeped out. For me, because it started in the bedroom, when he turns on the dominant mode,all of the other noise stops instantly. It's a conditioned, unconscious response my body delivers. His dominance triggers submission which is rolled up in sexuality for me and yes: nothing else exists. I'm an instrument trembling, waiting to be played.
Saoirse,
ReplyDeletei love that image. It has shocked me - the extent to which my body can overrule my mind. Completely unexpected. For me - that helps with the out of the bedroom too - not all the way - but it makes a difference.